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A few days ago, one of my friends ( a Christian) and I were having one of those "discussions" about God, the bible and religion. Knowing I was Pro-life in the sense that I'm totally against Pro-forced birth by the state, he asked me to define exactly what my problem with religious conservatives is. He knows that I don't exactly hate the idea of "god". He couldn't understand why I view people like Mr. Frothy as evil when they preached their idea of the bible. I'm posting my response to him for all to see. (I'm a newbie blogger here, so consider this my "get to know me" essay.) Besides, I think some people might get a kick out of it.

You asked me If I were God, what would I want from my people? What would I want them to do with their lives? How would I want them to conduct themselves? How would I want them to treat the people and things I went to through such effort to create?

I'd want them to be loving, to be interesting, to be uncomplicated. I'd want them to show kindness, compassion, mercy, understanding and care with other people and the planet. I would want them to seek true peace, not the "peace" of being too scared to act against a tyrant. I'd want them to care for the world around them, as I as "God" so cared for the world that I gave my only begotten son. I'd want them to use the brain I gave them to come up with new ways of doing things, to come up with more improved ways to love and care for the world and other people, to challenge what others think its "the only way" to find other, better ways, to challenge conventional thinking on what is right and wrong, to further understanding. I'd want my children to take joy in others differences. I'd want them to be humble and gentle, and protect those who can not protect themselves. I would want them to teach this to others, so that they would make the world be a better place. I would expect them to use their talents where they do the most good for everyone, not because they are of a certain gender. I wouldn't want them to be satisfied with being put in their "place" in a society, if that place does not suit them. I would expect them to be real, to be honest.. with themselves and each other. To accept themselves for who and what I created them to be. I would want them to grow beyond a fearful child into a responsible, independent and understanding adult, not dependent on me to constantly give them guidance.

And THAT is the problem I have with the bible and most religions. Because.. they don't do those things. Instead they take pride in being richer than someone else, smarter than someone else, "better" than someone else. They seek to divide one from another.. instead of bringing everyone together. Since the bible was written, it has been abused of its purpose and edited by men with ulterior motives. Religion has caused some of the worst things.. war, rape, slavery, hatred, status quo. And so often, hateful people use the bible to back up that thinking. People instead say "I can do these things because the bible says so" instead of taking from it the message of peace and love and kindness. They instead focus on how someone is different, inferior to them instead of taking joy in all the wonders. They instead point out how they are different instead of how we are the same. They want a fake simplistic solution to complicated problems because they do not wish to use their brains, to take the blinders off and truly see. Instead they do not want to think, to use effort to come up with a solution, to use compassion and love as their guiding principles. They just want a way to make uncomfortable problems that challenge their thinking to just "go away" instead of being loving and understanding. That is the intolerant child's way of dealing with problems, not that of a responsible and loving adult.

Love. Its the most simplest thing... and the most difficult. The most challenging. And in many ways.. the most complicated. To think first of others and not your own pride or your own ego. It impells us to look BEYOND ourselves.

Why should I say "Gay is a sin"? Because some cryptic line in a book told me so? No. I love my gay friends for who they are.. I don't think what they do is a sin. I think that was instead a thing placed in the bible by man who was too blind to see. Maybe it was instead a challenge placed there for me.. to use my brain and my compassion to say "No, thats not right"... Just as Jesus once challenged and disagreed with the money lenders and teachers in the Jewish temple. Gays are no different from me. Even their SEX is no different from mine (I've seen enough gay porn to know!). Their relationships can be, and frequently are, just as kind, just as loving, just as supportive, as straight sexual relationships. I just can't see how a simple thing like "gender" makes it a sin or not. Is "god" so petty that he must ask "Are you male or female" first? Perhaps god gave me a brain and science to observe the natural world, where homosexual relationships occur in more than just humans. Maybe instead they were placed there, born into our world, for a REASON. For example... they can not naturally bring children into the world themselves unless they come to an agreement with someone of the opposite gender. But they CAN adopt the children who are unloved, uncared for, unwanted. Children that would be a challenge for straight parents to take in because they already have children of their own to support. I know several gay families and those children are just as loved and cared for and educated in morals and ethics as any straight family. To deny a child a loving and stable home is cruel, regardless of its make up. That there are gay couples willing to provide such a home IS a loving and caring thing.

Have I strayed from the bible? Perhaps. But when you get down to it, what did Jesus want? To spread the LOVE. I am doing that. I don't need a religion to do so. I just don't need the text book to tell me to do it. I already got the instructions, its time to go out and practice them. In all I do, in my interactions, in my views, in the things I speak up for and defend. Love, compassion, empathy, kindness, hope, joy, stability, caring for the environment so that further generations can thrive. I see things and issues through those filters, to better my world.

I defend the right of women to have birth control because we can no longer "be fruitful and multiply", our world can no longer support it. We can no longer provide clean water and food to all. Making a child suffer through abuse, hunger, hatred and poverty is not a loving choice.. its a cruel one. I defend the right of a woman to have an abortion, because I have seen the torture we currently inflict on the disabled, because I would not wish to see a woman tortured mentally by being forced to carry a rapists child, because forcing a 10 year old to have her fathers child is cruel. I am not acting out of murder.. but out of kindness and compassion for all involved.

I do not deny people the chance to share intimacy with another, regardless of sex. Such a thing is a sign of love. I do not say "the poor should be thrown out"... for they are people too. Instead I will react to them with kindness and compassion, because I would rather pay a few dollars from my hard earned money than see any man, woman or child go without shelter and food, because that is cruel. I support things which will save our environment, because without edible food, water and clean air, we will suffer a terrible fate and we abuse the gift of our world. I will support human rights for all... because no one is better than another. I speak out against those who would force other people to be below them and their slaves, either because of race, religion, gender or sexual identification- because they are nothing more than bullies who chose to harm, harass, intimidate and belittle others for their own ego and power. I will use my brain for further understanding of these things.. so that all may benefit. I would shout down and remove those from power who are bullies and tyrants, who force others to conform to their hateful and mean beliefs.. for they are cruel and the opposite of loving. I will support those who do not always fall into the majority or the norm - just because they are not "the norm" does not mean they are wrong or evil.. they are simply different.

In so many ways I follow the Wiccan first law.. "DO NO HARM". None of us should be.. but so many churches and religions encourage JUST that. Even the bible, to an extent, encourages that. You are my brother on this planet... I want to treat you with the same love, the same respect, the same acceptance as I do the ones I was raised with. I want to love you no matter what, unconditional. I would hope you could find it in your heart to do the same. I want to see you fed, I want to see you happy, I want to see you joyful and fulfilled. I want to see you raise your children with respect for the world and its people... beyond what is taught in a book.. but out in the real world instead. I want to give you help if you stumble, I want to be the shoulder you lean on, the person you come to when in need. To be supportive when you need it, to kick your butt when you need it, to teach you when needed. You personally... and for every brother and sister on this planet.

Those that I would condemn would be the ones who do not love, do not care, do not show compassion. And even them I would say "but why"? Why can they not do those things? So many people are born with the "disability" to not do that. I work with those disabled from birth... I see that every day. Others have been so harmed they are not capable. For those, I have compassion, have caring, have empathy and I seek understanding instead of saying "they are condemned". I work hard to mitigate that.. and to keep it from happening in the first place, for no person should be so harmed and abused. Those that would cause harm to others I would say "put them where they can do no harm" (Like my cousin) so that others can instead live in love and kindness, without the scars abuse can cause. But to those people that would harm, I would instead give them help as much as possible to that perhaps they will be able to heal beyond. That is the loving, compassionate, kindest choice.

I am not perfect at these things. I fall on my face, get angry, lash out and get frustrated sometimes. I am human, and not perfect. But I get up the next day and try again.. every day. I try every day to help others get past their blindness.. to see beyond into a world of love for all people and things.. not just themselves. I try every day to live by my own code that I have chosen.

I have grown beyond needing a book as my moral compass. I need no man or woman or religion to tell me what it should be. I already have it in my heart. I am no longer a child who needs to keep checking the book to make sure I'm right. I am no longer in a class room.. saying "I'm not sure about this" or "I don't understand the tiny details of this" or "I'm afraid I wont pass the test". I no longer need a teacher or fear to force me to follow a path, for I have chosen it for myself already. I am an adult grown, and I need to make adult decisions.. to forge a path in keeping with all that I have learned. I have taken my book learning outside the clear class room examples and have applied it. I have made my choice... I chose LOVE.

If God would judge me so badly for my choice... then he is not the god of peace, life and love foretold of. He is not "the creator". He is instead a thing of hatred. evil and destruction, not what anyone should chose to worship.

I HAVE made my choice. Have you made yours????

Originally posted to ladijules on Wed Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38 PM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (210+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Purple Priestess, jan4insight, bushondrugs, Over the Edge, la paix joyeux, Metalmaven, Smoh, palantir, The grouch, Pandoras Box, greblos, madame damnable, SueM1121, beemerr, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, gnbhull, Bob Guyer, azrefugee, Black Max, lcrp, jnww, IrishGreg, jessical, historys mysteries, Wee Mama, maf1029, Carol in San Antonio, frsbdg, Rhysling, get the red out, HoosierDeb, JayRaye, TrueBlueMajority, Witgren, Cronesense, hooktool, createpeace, enufisenuf, Texknight, GreenPA, CyberDem, efrenzy, OhioNatureMom, OldDragon, stunzeed, Steveningen, radarlady, bnasley, soaglow, rogerdaddy, Unit Zero, Kiterea, MillieNeon, Onomastic, jhop7, hafnium, tytalus, KatGirl, BlackSheep1, filkertom, pixxer, allergywoman, Son of a Cat, dmhlt 66, Chinton, nokkonwud, mkfarkus, Jill, sostos, Shadowmage36, elengul, triplepoint, blogokvetsch, notdarkyet, teklanika, solliges, Habitat Vic, majcmb1, CarbonFiberBoy, highacidity, Lorinda Pike, marleycat, KVoimakas, althea in il, wayoutinthestix, SmartRat, kmbaya, ScienceMom, legalchic, Russgirl, dotdash2u, GeorgeXVIII, moonbatlulu, TracieLynn, Lefty Coaster, sockpuppet, Pinko Elephant, tacet, GRLionsFan, leftykook, Sun Tzu, MA Liberal, envwq, ChemBob, grannysally, Ms Citizen, I am a Patriot, Jake Williams, SuWho, Mathazar, conniptionfit, SME in Seattle, deeproots, blueoasis, Renee, NapaJulie, yellow cosmic seed, citisven, rapala, carpunder, IndyinDelaware, lastlegslaststand, CAPitBull, stratocasterman, BusyinCA, sfbob, a gilas girl, Militarytracy, expatjourno, CA Nana, tuesdayschilde, one of 8, minidriver, sonorelli, imfunnytoo, tommymet, MKinTN, Cassandra Waites, exterris, Dinclusin, SoCaliana, Brunette, JosephK74, maxcat06, US Blues, genethefiend, Mirele, Dingodude, katrinka, Shirl In Idaho, EdinStPaul, mwjeepster, madhaus, chira2, page394, ninkasi23, petulans, venger, knutsondc, califdem, Anne was here, KJC MD, Catte Nappe, uciguy30, boatjones, Amber6541, clananderson, prettygirlxoxoxo, Hatrax, chimene, a2nite, GDbot, Bridge Master, Bob Love, gizmo59, Captain Chaos, BadgerGirl, leathersmith, Back In Blue, Chaddiwicker, 207wickedgood, Texnance, blueoregon, jwhitmill, mofembot, OleHippieChick, msdobie, xanthippe2, rsie, PBen, Heiuan, Arahahex, teachme2night, bill warnick, foucaultspendulum, seefleur, Robynhood too, Matt Z, farlefty, smugbug, foresterbob, My Spin, MaryinHammondsport, JDWolverton, GrogInOhio, Lilith, PSzymeczek, legendmn, splashy
  •  I think this is a very nice response. (56+ / 0-)

    I have a bit of a problem with "Christian". I am a Christian, and no doubt your friend is, but I never say "I am a Christian", I say "I am an Episcopalian". There's a reason for that: when I hear "Christian" I think evangelical free-church, perhaps fundamentalist. Right wing Christians have done to "Christian" what the right wing has done to "Liberal". By your diary, I suppose that your friend is some flavor of Evangelical, and not all Evangelical Christians are fundies or even conservatives.

    I like what you say about the provenance of the Bible. You are spot-on. One of the things that I always love to remind right-wing evangelicals about is the fact that aside from the OT and some of the wisdom literature, the New Testament did not exist when Jesus was alive, in fact, it did not exist for quite a time after Jesus died as far as we can tell and did not exist in its current form until nearly 1000 years later.  The Church came first! (They hate that.)

    You may find this article in the April 2 edition of The New Yorker of interest, by Joan Acocella: "Seeing and Believing: experiences with evangelical congregations". It is a review of a book by T. M. Luhrmann called "When God Talks Back: Understanding the American Evangelical Relationship with God" (Knopf). Warning: it's pretty creepy.

    I do not understand Evangelicals like your friend. Unfortunately, all of us, even we "small-c catholic" Christians get lumped in with that crowd.

    Thank you for sharing this here.

    Santorum: Man on Dog; Romney: Dog on Car. Ren and Stimpy: Dog on Cat

    by commonmass on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 12:27:06 AM PDT

  •  That's pretty much my problem, too. (48+ / 0-)

    I just finished reading God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. He makes many of the same points, especially the whole idea of people who think they know what god wants and that it's hatred, murder and violence. He makes it so obvious that religion is man-made in how it makes its rules and dogma with no help from any deity. The things it allows and sometimes even requires benefits men and only men.

    Everyone writes a "here's who I am" diary when they join DK. So... Welcome to the community!!

    Keep holding on so long, 'cause there's a chance that we might not be so wrong. We could be down and gone but we hold on...

    by Purple Priestess on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 12:31:44 AM PDT

  •  Your values (8+ / 0-)

    mirror mine completely, and I am a United Methodist Christian.  

  •  I have no problems with Christians unless they (23+ / 0-)

    cut me off in traffic but it seems in viewing some of the current crop of religious pols, I do have problems.  The problems?
    In a civil society, in a secular society, in a society which values geniality, it seems that when one is discussing politics, religion is left at the door, except for the lunatic Christian fringe.  I don't have to know your religion to sell you a car or buy a goat from you or stand behind you in a check out line.  Maybe if our kids were dating it would come up but otherwise, no.  Politics should be the same but over the years, in the interest of controlling my BP I have become resigned to a certain amount of hypercritical, hypocritical  religiosity.  So I can ignore open displays of religion in public life.  So far so good.  The problem arises when these same folks presume to come into my home and dictate my private behavior in accordance to their personal beliefs while I have no vote in how they live their lives.      
    Pearl clutchers immediately declare but without Christianity we would have murder and mayhem in the streets as our faith is the reason murder is illegal.  Our legal code is founded on the morality of the Bible.
    Except it is not.  Non-Christian societies for millennium have outlawed murder.  No Bible needed.  Face it, most societies manage to have a justice system which takes care of the big stuff.  The little stuff is left to religion which they prefer to consider big stuff.
    So please, if someone wishes to proselytize, please do so by living an exemplary life so I will admire and emulate you; otherwise, please leave the religion at the door when approaching our secular institutions

    •  Oh, please, do you have a link? (0+ / 0-)
      Pearl clutchers immediately declare but without Christianity we would have murder and mayhem in the streets as our faith is the reason murder is illegal.
      I have to see this in context.

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:53:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  to start you off here is the assertion that (6+ / 0-)

        the US is a Christian nation
        You may wish to stop by at Talk2action for some background

        •  ROFL (0+ / 0-)

          I'm well aware of the repetition fallacy of conservatives making the "US is a Christian nation" claim but... well, I looked at the website and found

          Who We Are
          Faith Facts is a Bible-based, para-church ministry not affiliated with any denomination. Our mission is to further the gospel, that more may find a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the blessings of Christian living.
          You know that Christian leaders in the past have talked about the role of government and the church right? Like Augustine, or Martin Luther, or even Paul in the Book of Acts?

          Sigh. I was hoping you would have a link to Pat Robertson, or maybe Joel Osteen. : / The less well known you are, the stranger the claims seem to be (ie, no one ever heard of Timothy McVeigh until he murdered 168 people).

          Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

          by ravagerofworlds2 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 11:22:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've heard the murder thing before. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ladelfina, wishingwell

        There are fundamentalists who flat out state people would be committing murder and rape right and left all the time if it wasn't for Leviticus telling them not to.

        Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

        by Cassandra Waites on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 11:33:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You get it (16+ / 0-)

    this is how it should be with or without religion. Most people use the bible to justify their hate or in an attempt to force other to act as they think they should act with no regard for that person needs. They think only of themselves and those who agreed with them the rest can go to hell.

  •  The Problem is not Christians. (25+ / 0-)

    The problem is fundamentalism, and the subsequent fealty to conservative politics. This is true of any religion, not just Christianity. I am not a christian but my mother is and my father was. They were sickened by the things the fundamentalists do "In the name of God". It is a natural matchup between fundamentalists and conservative politics. They both are about themselves and a natural hate for the "other".

    Fundamentalists claim to follow the literal word of God, but they tend to follow the words of the Old Testament, which is more about Hebrew history and culture than about what God wants from us. The new testament is a much different "Word of God". It is about love, peace and understanding. Those things usually get lost in fundamentalist practice.

    My Conservative, but not religious, grandfather's last words were a fearful confession to my father: "I don't see how a conservative can ever go to Heaven". I've always thought that in facing death, he spoke the truth.

    We should love everyone. Even Republicans. - My late Christian Father

    by Bob the old soldier on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 05:49:02 AM PDT

  •  Most policies of conservative "christians" seem (0+ / 0-)

    antithetical to their religious tomes and tradition.  

    For instance, I'm pretty sure gay marriage isn't allowed within the Anabaptist/mennonite communities, but they aren't out their voting about it, either. And for those that are voting about that, abortion, makes me SICK that they vote for war, death, and less for the meek.

    That being said, I think you're really just an athiest in denial if you think a "god" should be exactly how you would conceive "perfect"....sort of illogical reasoning unless your "god" is just yours and nobody else's.

    Today, strive to be the person you want to be.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 07:17:54 AM PDT

    •  If you really think... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kingfishstew, JosephK74, ladelfina

      ..that someone who believes in gods is "an atheist in denial", then you really don't understand the definition of atheism.  

      •  Or you're misreading. (0+ / 0-)

        People act differently all the time because they are in denial about what they really believe, or who they really are.

        But thanks for comin' by!

        Today, strive to be the person you want to be.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:30:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sounds kind of like the argument that everyone (0+ / 0-)

          who hates gays is gay themself. Kind of comforting, sometimes true, but not universal reality.

          •  I was addressing the diarist specifically (0+ / 0-)

            which is the first weird thing with KathleenM1 deciding she needed to respond. I totally agree with your point though, and actually I really dislike the "he doth protest too much" argument, especially when it comes to gays/lesbians because I think it trivializes their reality.

            Today, strive to be the person you want to be.

            by GoGoGoEverton on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:08:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  CCs build up an immunity to Cognitive Dissonance (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites

      So, here is what Christ actually says about who are his disciples.

      Matthew 16:24-26
       24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
      And what are Christ's commands to his followers?
      Mark 12:28-34

      28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
         29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

       32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

       34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

      For some reason, many Christian Conservatives love to ignore Jesus, their professed Lord and Savior, and prefer instead to follow a quote from say, Leviticus 18 which includes a large number of prohibitions against sexual activity between family members, animals, the same gender, or sacrificing your child to Molek.

      Seriously... Jesus says one thing, and these people would rather look to Moses who was addressing his tribe just after the Exodus and in Canaan knowing freedom for the first time, and apparently confused about what was appropriate sexual conduct? lol

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:12:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Who can really define what/who god is? (0+ / 0-)

      Specifics of who/what/where of god are quite vague.  There's plenty of room for interpretation.  Who's to say what god is or not?  I believe most people come to their own unique conclusions and understanding quite naturally no matter what religion or lack of religion they believe in.  And I think you'd find them quite diverse even among members of the same faith.

      Would we be so happy to have a military that dwarfs all others combined if it was a line item deduction on our paychecks next to FICA."

      by Back In Blue on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 07:40:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not too hot on the whole God thing this week (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jnww, gizmo59

    But I really like this thought regarding "teh gayz":

    Maybe instead they were placed there, born into our world, for a REASON. For example... they can not naturally bring children into the world themselves unless they come to an agreement with someone of the opposite gender. But they CAN adopt the children who are unloved, uncared for, unwanted.
  •  Culture determines religion ... (11+ / 0-)

    So, if your culture is based on the notion that you and its adherents are 'superior' ... then you can justify anything.
      The Catholic Church's Discovery Doctrine was used to justify Europeans conquering first African nations, then later.. much of the rest of the world (India, Australia, the US, Mexico, etc, etc. etc.)  
      But you don't have to beat up on White people to see this. Every organized religion separates itself from other religions, and claims superiority on its way.
      That's why atheists like Hitchens believed that religion was inherently evil.  Sure, it can be occasionally tamed but.... "Normally, good people will do good things. Bad people will do bad things... BUT only religion allows GOOD people to do BAD things."

    "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, every post WWII US President would have been hanged." =Chomsky

    by abenjaminc on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 07:28:14 AM PDT

    •  just curious (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      Did Hitchens make any distinction between the concepts of religion and faith?

      "Religion" tends to convey practices, organizations, dogma, et.

      "Faith" conveys more personal response to a perceived higher power.

      I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

      by Satya1 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:49:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dawkins would argue (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        that "faith" has little to do with personal spirituality, but is rather an ideational mechanism that helps to reinforce church power.  The lay are told that having faith is a virtue, not having it is a sin (and therefore will lead to damnation), and that it good to believe in the absence of reason.  Like an antibody in the human body that fights microbes, the idea of faith functions to keep the lay from entertaining ideas other than what their religious leader tells them, thereby keeping them in the clutches of their power.  Better to focus on living a life of love and compassion than a life of faith.

    •  I disagree (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askyron, Catte Nappe

      Any ideology can be used to rationalize bad things. All it takes is power, and an institution to be at the helm of control.

      In China for instance, the policy is no religion at all. There are Buddhist monks immolating themselves to protest the oppression of the communist authority.

      And noted Atheist Ayn Rand loves to attack charity and selflessness as inherently evil, and ego driven.

      You know, because Ayn Rand thought she was so much better than the poor pathetic masses of Christians blindly following an archaic faith.

      Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:26:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Having grown up in a fundamentalist household (22+ / 0-)

    I can attest firsthand to the intolerance, bigotry, and hypocrisy that runs rampant amongst many believers.

    A few examples of my earliest memories of injustice and hatred in the church are:

    1) A man who had been a member for many years was diagnosed with lung cancer. He was so sick you could actually see a green tint to his skin. Instead of the congregation helping him in his final days, they shunned him because he "brought the sickness upon himself" by smoking.

    2) My father was an "elder" in the church. When my sister left her abusive husband, the church banned my father from being an elder because of the divorce. They never once supported my sister or her son and their well being.

    3) I overheard my own mother talking about the youth pastor who was gay and how she and others planned to not only out him but see to it he be fired. (At 12 years old I actually called him and warned him of this insidious coup!) He was the best thing that ever happened to that church and brought life to the lifeless youth. Never once was there a complaint about him or any child who was afraid of him. We loved him and we trusted him.

    Meanwhile, our pedophile preacher, whom they knew had a past but chose to ignore, was quietly transfered and actually recommended to another church in another state.

    These incidents all happened before I was 13 years old and even then I knew something was wrong with this way of thinking and acting. I am now estranged form my parents and I am now an atheist. Religion helped tear my family apart and I want no part of it.

    Thank you, ladijules, for your diary. I would love nothing more than to say the things you wrote to my own parents and to their congregation who do nothing more than disgrace everything that could be right in this world.

    Strange but not a stranger.

    by jnww on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 07:58:07 AM PDT

  •  in the choice between Love and The Law (11+ / 0-)

    i also choose Love.

    I support wholeheartedly anyone else who wants to choose Love.

    Amen.  So be it.  So mote it be.  

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    Real journalists know that lies do not bring "balance" to truth! (h/t elwior)

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:26:02 AM PDT

  •  Thank you so much. (6+ / 0-)

    You speak for me as well. What a pleasure it is to welcome you to the community. It's good to have you here. :)

    Dear Republicans, the United States is a Representative Democracy, not your church.

    by Onomastic on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:41:34 AM PDT

  •  Great post, great outlook! Now, if we remember (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    David PA

    that all politicians get into that racket to benefit themselves at the cost of other humans, we find the key to how they pervert faith: they set themselves up to be little tin gods, more important than any others.

    It's at the root of seeking power and wealth.
    It's at the root of seeking influence.
    It's at the root of all attempts to become something bigger and better than the next person in line.

    But far too many politicians don't understand that faith isn't meant to enrich them here and now (just like far too many corporate officers and bankers and insurance claims judges) -- it's meant to bring people together and help the least among us, not further embiggen the self-appointed greatest.

    If there were justice in the universe their internal abscesses would pop and reduce Robertson, Santorum and all their ilk regardless of the faith they claim to puddles of stinky pus.

    LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 08:49:26 AM PDT

    •  you mean politician as in (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David PA
      "Mothers may still want their favorite sons to grow up to be President, but . . . they do not want them to become politicians in the process" (John F. Kennedy).
      not as in partaking in partisan politics.
      •  Amen; but the sort of politician I have in mind (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        is the one who cloaks himself in other clothes -- Pat Robertson, for instance, or that loathesome Warren Jeffs, or the even more despicable Newt Gingrich.

        LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 at 12:08:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Mm hm. They did me, too, back when I was (3+ / 0-)

    an evangelical and a political liberal. :) I confused the hell out of everyone, including the Young Dems at my college.

    I never did understand how anyone calling themselves a Christian could support the Republican party, given how much they hate the poor and try to make our lives harder, and how much the Bible supports the poor over the rich. Apparently, at least among the Christians I knew at the time, calling yourself a Christian and wearing it on your sleeve was enough, even if your actions were anti-Christian.

  •  Your diary is so relevant (13+ / 0-)

    to what I'm going through with my brother. We were raised Jewish, he converted to Hebrew Christianity (not to be confused with Jews for Jesus or other messianic Jewish groups), and announced that Heb-Christs were the elite of both Jews and Christians because they understood what the OT and NT were really about. Then later, he became evangelical. I tend more towards Taoism myself whose basic commandment is "Do no harm", but my spirituality is really eclectic and based on inclusiveness and not on textual dogma, no matter how poetic.

    Our latest discussion is about helping the poor. He's rich, I am not, though I'm okay and very blessed. Just not rich in terms of gold. Very rich in terms of loving friends, health, well-being, and bagels and cream cheese. He claims that the Bible says that if a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat, and that when the Bible talks about the poor, God's really talking about the "poor in spirit". This attitude relieves my bro of having to give a crap about the poor, and makes it okay to oppose safety nets and other programs to help bring poor people up in the world. He calls them entitlements.

    A Catholic priest friend, who is a great man -- he works with the poor in Nigeria, especially children with AIDS who have been abandoned -- took great pleasure in providing a list of scriptures from both the OT and the NT dealing with the poor. This pissed my bro off, as he views Catholics as cult members (Mormons too), and the Priest views Protestants as those who don't really understand the Bible.

    My bro's view is that he's a sinner, so he needs a savior. He need do nothing else but profess his belief and champion Jesus. Despite his narcissism and poverty of philosophy . . . he need not change, because Christ died for his sins. He does love to pontificate about the scriptures for hours on end to anyone who will listen. He loves to be the wise Patriarch, and dispense his knowledge of God. He tries to convert me sometimes and just doesn't understand why I don't "get it".

    Thing is, I do love him, and he has a wicked sense of humor that we share, and I know his emotional history and why he is so uptight and fearful of anything that doesn't neatly fit into his category pantry, so I put up with it. But this debate we're having about the poor is really pissing me off.

    Ah, I needed to vent about this. Thanks for the opportunity and for your great diary.

  •  My problem is that people (6+ / 0-)

    believe there is some diety over them.  Like a king or something.  We are not the subjects of something lording over us.  I believe we are beings who are trying to live the life that we chose before birth (my beliefs only, so don't think you need to correct me on this because I'm not trying to convince you, the reader to agree with me).  I believe we have karma to settle in each life into which we incarnate.  

    No diety is in charge of me.  That would be shirking my responsibility. I am in charge of myself.  The bible is nothing other than a book, up for interpretation, and boy do people love to interpret it to suit themselves.  No, not for me, none of it.

    love the fetus, hate the child

    by Raggedy Ann on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:24:55 AM PDT

  •  Antichrist (9+ / 0-)

    During the ACA debate, I went to a town hall in a local park where my congresswoman, Jackie Speier, was speaking. I was part of a group of Raging Grannies. We were giving out flyers about single payer or the public option. We were passing out flyers as the town hall, which featured a contentious group of  teabaggers, was breaking up. An elderly teabagger couple passed us, and the woman turned around and hissed at us, "You're the antichrist." I hissed back, "You're the antichrist".
    The woman said, "I can't be the antichrist. I go to church every sunday."
    I'm not even sure what the antichrist is. But after that encounter I started thinking about how these teabaggers call themselves christians, but they don't display the christian virtues I learned about in catechism class at the Gate of Heaven parochial school when I was 6 years old.  Wouldn't Jesus want everyone to have healthcare?
    I guess you could say that everyone creates God in his/her own image, but conservative christians have made God into exactly the opposite of what I learned he was supposed to be.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam> "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." Edna St.V. Millay

    by slouching on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:37:01 AM PDT

  •  Excellent! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, JosephK74

    My "belief system" exactly.

    If the God of the bible really meant what he said then he would judge us by our actions, not our beliefs.

    If you do good and don't believe in Him than will you be less likely to be rewarded than someone who does bad things and believes in God?  Not in any heaven I want to go to.

    Which is good news for John McCain.

    by AppleP on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 09:58:15 AM PDT

  •  My fundiloon sibling (9+ / 0-)

    is appalled by my attitude toward the Bible.   I dismiss the entire Old Testament as being written by a bunch of old tribal elders in the distant past.   She is aghast when I say such things.  To her, this is THE "True Word of God".  

    No it isn't.  It's just a collection of old tribal tales.   Some of it is beautiful to read, like the Psalms.  Or the "Songs of Solomon".   But so what.  There was inspiring, lyrical poetry written in civilizations pre-dating even the Egyptian/Hebrew eras.

    I try to convey to her how much of Jesus' original teachings I believe have been totally distorted by Peter's "Church" and its descendants in subsequent centuries.   We have so little of the original "Christian" thought in Jesus' teachings to parse his true meanings.

    But it's safe to say, that most of Jesus' teachings would be considered too leftist, liberal, radical by today's fundiloon standards.    It's amazing to me how the Christian Right can pontificate so vociferously against all the tenets of the Sermon On The Mount.

    I like what you wrote in this diary.  Well said!

    •  This made me think of a story Joseph Campbell ... (4+ / 0-)

      told.  (Joseph Campbell being, of course, the brilliant scholar and teacher of world mythologies.)

      Campbell once knew a student from India who wanted to understand American religion and Christianity, so -- displaying a degree of open-mindedness which many Americans would do well to emulate -- the student got a copy of the Bible and read it cover to cover.

      When Campbell asked what he thought of it, the student seemed was genuinely confused and distressed.  He said, "I've read the whole thing, but I just don't understand.  I can't find any religion in it!"

      I would say that the closest thing to religion in the Bible are the parts that contain what are probably the most accurate, least embroidered quotations of Jesus.

  •  Welcome, ladijules (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Nice opening diary.  I'm sure we'll enjoy reading more from you in the future....

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 10:24:56 AM PDT

  •  The gospel in a word is love... (7+ / 0-)

    Quite a few people try to talk me into things I am not going to do, like not eating meat, or joining Kiwanis, or participating in a bowling league, or, well you get the idea. They think that I would be happier and a better person if I did these things.

    Mormons come to my door, and want to convert me to Mormonism. So do people  of other religions. They want me to be saved.

    I try to be tolerant of both secular and religious salespersons as individuals, as long as they get the message fairly quickly when I tell them that I am not interested. Ditto for atheists. I have read the popular books by atheists and agnostics, so I m not uninformed as to the arguments for these positions. And I have read a lot of books by religious scholars, so I do not have a naive or unquestioning view of religion.

    I am a member of a liberal Protestant denomination. We also hold that "the gospel in a word is love." We particpate in our church because our journey (life) seems to us to be deeper and richer in meaning by meeting together, and because by being together and by cooperating with other denominations we can be more effective than we can by going it alone.  I understand that many atheists and agnostics (some in my immediate family) are fully ethical and moral people who do not have a need for church. However, I do.

    I fully support separation of religion and state. I don't care whether we are religious or not, as members of this on-line group  we are united in our opposition to those who would use the government in ways that diminish human dignity, and for that I am glad!

  •  Jesus never read the Bible. (6+ / 0-)

    The Bible is not even the word of God, but of MAN. Man can say it is from God, and yet man (men) included only what they wanted - the gospels that they chose, leaving many others out. They didn't want anything that might tell humans that they have a divine right, that they only needed to pray to God in their own way - without gilded churches, or even a building surrounding them. they didn't want women to know that they are equal in the eyes of God, that they didn't come from a rib, nor were they responsible for sin, "original" or otherwise.
    Before the printing press, people never even knew what was in the Bible except what was told to them by men in robes, purporting to speak for God.
    I much prefer pagan religions, or ones like Buddhism; religions that teach about self and responsibility to other humans, as well as the planet.
    This is not to say the Bible is bad. It is not. Its teachings have been perverted by other men who only seek control of other human beings.
    All in all, it's a nice storybook. Nothing more.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. Rachel Carson, Silent Spring

    by MA Liberal on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 10:29:46 AM PDT

  •  I'd be interested in hearing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SuWho, Catte Nappe

    what your friend thinks about your diary.  Can you please let us know what his response is?

    Tshirt seen at the University of Chicago - Front "That's fine in practice" Back "But how does it work in theory?"

    by Oakton Mom on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 10:35:44 AM PDT

  •  One of the greatest commandments Jesus gave (4+ / 0-)

    Was laid out in Mathew 22:39 I think?

    "Love your neighbor as you would love yourself."

    That commandment is second among the first for Christians that they love the lord thy God.

    This commandment unfortunately seems to have been lost in translation to ardent fundamentalists.

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 10:37:00 AM PDT

    •  It's all in the interpretation (0+ / 0-)

      If you are absolutely certain that your neighbor, if he does not follow your particular brand of religion, is going to spend enternity in an actual hell; then if you love him as you would love yourself you will do everything in your power to "save" him. Just as you would save a child about to wander into a busy street, or a woman in a wheel chair when her house catches fire. Thus you might find justification for many harsh statements and unwelcome actions.

      from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

      by Catte Nappe on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 02:28:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nice statement... here's mine... (11+ / 0-)

    When I have this conversation, the question I ask is:

    Do you really think that if I live my life with kindness and love to my fellow humans - doing good works and making the world a better place...  but simply don't worship God... that I'll be sent to Hell for eternity? Is that the behavior of a kind and loving God?

    That sounds like the petty actions of a child, not one of a loving, forgiving, omnipotent, omnipresent an eternal God.

    The response I opften get is "well, that's what it says in the Bible"... to which I reply:

    Who wrote the bible? Did a lightning bolt come down from the sky and etch the very words in stone? Or, was it written by people (often hundreds of years after the fact) who "say" they were inspired by God. And then, highly edited by the early Catholic church leaders (new testament), or Jewish elders (old testament)?

    Ask them to explain to you how the Bible was written & edited. This can lead to some very interesting conversations.

    Personally, I don't know "what lies beyond", but I find it really hard to believe that if I live a good life, there is some creature up in the sky that will damn me for eternity simply because I didn't praise his name.

    Freedom isn't free. So quit whining and pay your taxes.

    by walk2live on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 10:39:36 AM PDT

    •  This is one of the questions (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ladijules, Back In Blue, lurkyloo

      that I can never get a straight answer to, either.  I always give the challenge that I will convert on the spot if they (the Christian) can give me compelling and logical answers to two or three simple questions.  None of them have ever come close.

      Another question I like to ask is a bit more complex, but I'll try to summarize it:  Do you think that eternal punishment is fitting for any crime, no matter how bad?  Including the crime of disobedience?  If one of your own children disobeyed you and did something unthinkable... say, stole your car and ran over and killed his little brother with it... would you punish him for ETERNITY for that?  You wouldn't?  Then why is your God less reasonable than you?

      For that matter, eternity is a tough sell as a reward, too.  If you don't suffer in heaven, and all is good, and there is no pain and no expiration date (death), then what incentive do you have to do anything, ever?  Want to write sonnets better than Shakespeare, compose a symphony, learn to knit, etc.?  Well, you have forever, so what's the point of starting anything?  What's the point of striving for a goal when everything is eventually achievable?  In short, what's the fun of life if there are no challenges?  If you don't think it's dull now, what about in a hundred years?  A thousand?  A million?

      Eternal puishment and reward play well to an unsophisticated, fearful audience.  If there is an afterlife, it isn't anything like what the fundies say it's like.  

      •  Good question/example... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hatrax, lurkyloo

        I'll have to remember that one.

        I had a baptist preacher come to my door once, looking for people to populate his new church down the road. He was a nice enough man; kind, etc. I asked him the same questions above, and his response was:

        "Well, if you're right and I'm wrong, no harm done. But, if I'm right and you're wrong..."

        I replied that if I was right, there was a harm done by his approach. I said that the purpose for our lives was to live them to the fullest; to experience all that life has to offer, to help improve the human condition, to learn all we can about the world and our place in it... If he uses up his entire life's energy with his head buried in a book that was edited by a bunch of 2nd century oligarchs, he's missed out on the whole purpose of life... and that was just sad.

        With that he kind of shrugged and bid me a good day. I always wonder if he gave that any further thought, or just dismissed me as another hopeless heathen.

        Freedom isn't free. So quit whining and pay your taxes.

        by walk2live on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 11:20:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thomas Jefferson, Jesus & today's "Christians" (0+ / 0-)

    Your article made me think of the recent Newsweek article Andrew Sullivan wrote on the topic.

    Christianty in Crisis

  •  There's no such thing as a Christian conservative. (4+ / 0-)

    Or a Christian Republican. Because what conservatives and Republicans believe and the policies they support are incompatible with the teachings of Christ. Period. Full stop. End of story. Fuck 'em.

    Barack Obama: So morally bankrupt that he thinks people who tortured other people to death should get a pass. Likes to prosecute whistleblowers and pot smokers, though.

    by expatjourno on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 11:42:50 AM PDT

  •  Is "god" so petty that he must ask (9+ / 0-)

    "are you male or female?"

    This is one of my beefs with religious conservatives - their strict gender role assignments.  Their insistence that men are, by their sex, natural leaders, smarter than women, and best designed to "be in charge."  What a load of baloney.

    It's unfair to both men and women.  It is a cookie cutter approach to humanity, and is simplistic and juvenile.  

    I also don't need a book to tell me right from wrong.  For example, I know that the Saints' coach telling players to "attack the head" of the 49er's quarterback is wrong.  My 14-year old son and I were discussing this story on the way to school this morning, and listening to some of the remarks.  I pointed out that having an internal moral code means that when someone in authority tells you to do something you know is wrong, you refuse to do it.  Just because a coach, or a teacher, an employer, or your commanding officer says so, doesn't make a wrong thing right.

    Sorry, got off on a tangent there.  But it leads me to my point, which is that I find many conservative people who also identify as "good Christians" often seem to lack critical thinking skills, or the desire to think for themselves.  They seem to prefer to abdicate responsibility for making decisions to a higher authority - women to their husbands, men to their church leaders, and so on.  

  •  The Teachings of Jesus Christ (5+ / 0-)

    Are not followed by most of his followers.

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 12:21:41 PM PDT

  •  Boo Ya! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladijules, foucaultspendulum, melo

    I love your essay.  Rock it out.

    When we talk about war, we're really talking about peace.

    by genethefiend on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 12:25:12 PM PDT

  •  If there was a god (0+ / 0-)

    this discussion would be irrelevant.

    Since there isn't, we will endlessly debate it and atheists will continue to be accused of not respecting the delusions of the delusional.

    Funny though, the delusional are not expected to respect our belief that their delusions are, in fact, delusions.

    Always a double standard, even in an enlightened place such as DK.

    It is very very sad.

    To be a Republican, you have to believe that our economic problems are caused by the poor having too much money and the rich not having enough.

    by Tommy Jones the Band on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 01:00:11 PM PDT

    •  LOL... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      foucaultspendulum, melo

      Oddly enough... I have no problem whatsoever with Athiests. One of my best friends is one. Its just a different kind of belief really. A very logical and understandable one!

      •  ladijules, fantastic diary, more please..also, a (0+ / 0-)

        Wicca, well more than one, seem to thrive in Santa Barbara.  

            'I Dance for the Love'

        I dance for the love

        I dance even when I feel pain
        I dance knowing there's something to gain

        I dance for the love

        I dance for me
        I dance for everyone to see

        I dance for the love

        I dance as the sunshine
        I dance hoping you will be mine

        I dance for the love

        I dance with words to say
        I dance all day

        I dance for the love

        I dance even when you leave
        I dance and still believe

        I dance for the love

        Amy Lee

      •  lol (0+ / 0-)

        me either, i find it deliciously quaint and charming that god created atheism.

        hiding easter eggs so the kids can have the fun of finding them.

        a playful, mysterious force that has eternal qualities finite minds have to adapt to, to approach.

        nice diary, gracias

        why? just kos..... *just cause*

        by melo on Fri Apr 06, 2012 at 12:15:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Man creates god in his own image (0+ / 0-)

    Fuck the bible.

  •  Love is the simplest (4+ / 0-)
    But can be the most difficult and complicated act
    You cant have said it better.

    I constantly have to fight prejudice.

    There are these two "seemingly" able bodied guys who stand at a red light next to my work begging, every single day.

    Why are they here is the question that keeps popping in my head when I see these unfortunate unkempt brothers. My first instinct is usually to drive past without looking at them.

    But after having done so a couple of times I realized that their story may be complicated. Maybe I need one to stop, park and talk to them.

    I now carry loose dollars and change in my car just to give them, perhaps to assuage my guilt.

    Love is tough, we as a society CANT ALLOW the GOP to gut mental health programs, and other social programs that are vital to help those who cannot advocate for themselves, for whatever reason.

    Thats why I wrote my GOP congressperson demanding he change the party stance on Ryan budget.

    Excuse my ramblings

  •  I apologize in advance for this but... (0+ / 0-)

    ...I'd just remove the steering wheel from my pants. Arrrg...
    Surely t'was the devil that made me post this?

    I try not to come here more often then I do.

    by Maroon watch on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 05:10:20 PM PDT

  •  The supposed message of peace and understanding... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    is buried in 10 gallons of spilled ink about livestock and linens. Surrounded by mythical creatures and 900 year old men. With just enough micromanagement of bodily functions to turn off anyone who values personal space and privacy.

    Beyond that the bible is an instruction booklet on how to be a happy slave.

    We lose if we choose to forget; the lives of men, and money spent.

    by DeanDemocrat on Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 06:35:59 PM PDT

  •  Kill the disabled because they are inconvenient (0+ / 0-)

    Is that part of the kindness, generosity, loving stuff you mentioned? You are a hypocrite of the worst kind. And you share the same ethics on the disabled as the Nazis did: eliminate life not fit for living. At least that was the policy until the Roman Catholic hierarchy was abled to shut them down.

    Spare us your moral obtuseness.

    •  autismepidemic, where did you get this comment? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The diarists states she works with the disabled.

      •  autismepidemic is incorrect in his interpretation (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        foucaultspendulum, melo

        of what the diarist wrote, but he got it from this bit

        I defend the right of a woman to have an abortion, because I have seen the torture we currently inflict on the disabled
        The diarist doesn't advocate killing the disabled.

        She seems to be advocating that a woman/family to be allowed to chose to abort a pregnancy that will result in a severely disabled child to be brought into this cruel and abusive system of health "care" we have in this country, only to suffer abuse in a system that claims to value "life" but really only values survival of the fittest (all others be damned). When a society doesn't provide humane caring support for its most needy, that society has no business demanding they be born only to live a tortured life. Would that it were otherwise.

        FWIW, I agree with the diarist.

        p.s. Wasn't the RCC actually complicit in some of the Nazi terror? That the RCC suddenly developed a "conscience"  when millions had already been killed is swell, but irrelevant and unrelated to the diarist's points.

        •  from me.... (0+ / 0-)

          Not only do I work with the disabled, I have a severely autistic son, as well as a disabled husband.

          I would NEVER support killing them. Lurkyloo is correct in my meaning. My son has been tortured in ways that I can NOT believe are legal in this country. I love my son more than you can imagine... I would not have wanted him to suffer the hell he has been through with "schools" and Special Education directors who told me torturing, even killing him... would be fine with them and I couldn't do a thing to to protect them because I was only a "stupid" parent.
          So what did they to my son? One administrator had him held down (when he was 12!) by six people to rub lemon juice in his eyes because my son spit at him.
          A teachers aid held him down and burned a cigerette into his hand because my non verbal son wouldn't tell him why he was upset.
          A teacher looked him in a dark closet for 6 hours a day... for a month, because she "didn't feel like dealing with him".
          A school gave him medication he was allergic to, even though we gave them no permission to give him any meds... then told us if we refused to let them to continue to medicate him they would go to court and have him taken out of our custody and put in a mental institution where they could "medicate him to death and you can't do shit about it" (THeir exact words, btw).
          The head of special education who refused to provide any help for him and expeled him from school for being non verbal.. then was ordered by a federal judge to comply with the law, tried to "comply" by giving us one choice... to send him Judge Rottenburg, where they routinely torture children with electric shock. (We told her to fuck off.. and almost had our son taken away from us for "refusing to provide him with an education")

           I went to the police and was told that NONE of this was abuse and their wasn't anything they could do about it because it happened on school grounds. A teacher from the same school my son was at was caught on video tape beating 2 special education students... 5 and 7. Even then, the judge through any charges out, saying that "little retards like that need to be beaten".

          Had I known what my son was going to go through in life and how little I could defend him... yes, I would have considered abortion had I known. Not out of hatred or not wanting a disabled child. But out of incredible love... no child deserves to be tortured the way mine has been.

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